Let's start this with an "Open thread" discussion. Please comment on any topic of concern. Its not that I can't guess what's on your mind these days, but sometimes we suprise each other. I'll open individual threads for the relevant topics as they come up.
P.S. I would appreciate any comments on one old post I left up below, with some modest ideas for a better Monona.
Update 4/21 8PM:
1) Thanks for keeping it civil!
2) In general I don't intend to argue the points, I just want to hear what people have to say. But let me respond to a couple of things posted in the comments:
First, the "silly" comment: There is only one reason to close Maywood and that is the relative cost of maintaining two small schools vs. one larger one. This is of course balanced by the benefits of maintaining a small school environment. As far as I can see the less these two schools cost the less reason there would be to consolidate them. No?
Second, the comment about these schools being "half-staffed". I invite the poster to look at the number of teachers and staff (there are 30+ people who work in each of these buildings) and divide that into the number of students. You will find that the student/teacher ratios are much lower than other schools in the district, and that they among the very lowest in the state. These schools are by no means "half-staffed". Next year there will be one principal between the two, but we are also adding a teacher at Maywood.
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(photo ©2008 Bruce Fritz)
About Me
- Peter Sobol
- My family moved to Monona in 2003 and have been happily ensconsed in the Frost Woods Neighborhood ever since. I have 2 kids who graduated from Mg. I have been serving on the school board since April of 2007. We moved back to the Midwest in 2002 after spending 10 years in California, where I was a Department Director for Maxtor, a Fortune 500 company. In truth we left California largely because of the school situation - chronically underfunded schools did not offer the kind of programs or opportunities we wanted for our children. We picked Monona because our thorough research showed that this was a place we would really like to educate our kids. Our experience has taught us to value the quality schools we have here in Monona, and the importance of careful stewardship to maintain community support for those schools.
20 comments:
I am a Monona resident, with elementary aged children. To me, it makes the most sense to merge Maywood and Nichols (Winnequah) into one school as soon as the board can do so.
My elementary school was a K-5 set-up, and I believe children today can learn in a similar set-up. While the current separation is nicer for kids, cutting building expenses (heat, electricity, maintenance) is much nicer then cutting programs and staff.
The budget crunch the district had this year will probably continue or be tight until either the State changes its calculations, or enrollment increases. Combining the two schools can maintain the staff and programs that make the district great.
I am a Monona resident too. It does seem silly that Peter says cutting the principal down to part time will help keep Maywood open longer. Why would you want to keep it open under those circumstances? Doesn't seem fair to the kids or the staff. Actually, it seems downright irresponsible.
Words like "silly" and "irresponsible" are not conducive to a productive dialog. In the above post they are simply unsupported conclusions. Don't agree with an idea? Please post your reasoning, but no epithets.
I think that the presentations at the board meeting were quite conclusional. Dean Bowles, an individual much more accomplished in these matters than you, stated eloquently the issues. Many others stated passionately the concerns. I am surprised that you don't share those concerns.
FUR94 is correct in his assumptions. Why should this community tolerate two half-staffed schools instead of insisting upon one great school?
As a partial response to Peter Sobol and the anonymous post, I feel the board's decision to cut a principal was intelligent and responsible.
The current retirement makes this year the board's best opportunity to save money with regards to administration. Given current enrollment projections, it is likely that Maywood will have to close in the near future, and it would be harder to cut administration at such time. Cutting a position through attrition saves search/hiring expenses, as well as the personal stress of firing a new principal.
I think the school board is getting pressure from people who want to keep Maywood open, and then criticism for their desisions, because it goes against this goal. I want the board to know, as a parent and taxpayer, that I support closing Maywood. I have not spoken up at any board meeting, and didn't mean for my silence to add to the above pressure.
I think the board made the right call with regards to the principals, and should continue the logic and take advantage of next years changes. The board could be preemptive with their budget cuts, combine moving costs, and give a little budget breathing room if they combine the two schools as soon as they can.
I am an older Monona resident, kids already out of school, and I too agree that it doesn't make sens to split the principal when we could just put k-6 in one school if Winnequah is big enough which I understand it is. Isn't that what Winnequah used to be anyway? I think we could use Maywood for lots of other things, including a youth center and as an extension of the community center. We could have senior citizen exercsie classes in the gymnasium. I think the principal decision was an attempt to appease parents by keeping Maywood open. I have lived here long enough to know that school boards never please parents, so might as well do what is best for the kids. What is best for kids is a school where they know the teachers and the teachers care about them. That can happen at Maywood or Winnequah - the building doesn't matter.
I am reluctant to delete comments because this is intended to be a place for a dialog between community members, not a debate with me. As such there is a compelling reason for everyone's voice to be heard.
However, the above post ascribes negative motivations to others. Since one obviously cannot know the motivation of another person the post clearly risks the error of an unfair characterization. To the extent that negative assumptions about motivation are wrong then the post becomes a personal attack and is therefore not acceptable.
That said, the author did make one or two other important points on the issues and I invite a repost or the comment modified to focus on the issues not the individuals.
It would be irresponsible to increase student to staff ratios, especially in light of several issues:
1. Title One School (translate - many poor students who require extra assistance and more funds to educate)
2. High Ratio of ESL students
3. High Ratio of special ed students and students with behavioral issues.
4. Part time principal presence. How do you account for time when there is not a licensed administrator in the building? Are there DPI guidelines requiring this?
How often do you volunteer at Maywood? I would like your feedback in this regard, because numbers on paper mean NOTHING if you haven't spent actual, physical time in these classrooms.
To better understand the challenges, consider this: one of my neighbors called the Monona Police last week, because he witnessed a scary, inappropriate, and dangerous incident. Apparently ( I got this second hand. You might want to check in with the police department for specific details ) this neighbor witnessed two fifth grade boys chasing a fourth grade girl. No big deal, right? Would seem that way, except for the fact that one of the fifth grade boys had shot the fourth grade girl three times, in the back, with a bb gun. My neighbor watched as the police removed no fewer than five guns from the home of the fifth grade boy.
Can you opine on the number of staff that would be required to handle this situation had it occurred on the Nichols playground?
Thank you for your response.
"the above post ascribes negative motivations to others. "
I strongly disagree with that statement. The post only dealt with the facts about peoples actions or lack of action. The accusation that the previous posters arguements were silly is incorrect.
I contend your arument is silly.
The argument seems to say that the ratio is too low. The inference of this is that we in Monona should feel guilty or even privileged that we can still have Maywood and share a principals (poppycock). What else can the common man believe?
Let us review, the circular arguments about Maywood and principals are as follows:
Current principal can handle it and are GREAT! No disagreements about the quality of person. Yet, you are asking her to perform a task that is thankless and has no record of success (yes, I want success NOT it has been done) in Wisconsin (or the nation?). It is a taks akin to sisyphus.
The district is making decisions based on personalities rather than what is best for the district and kids...it seems.
Settle a score...Our board and super thought this was a great idea two years ago. yet, the idea was rebuffed and rears it's head when the super is retiring. (mmmmmmm) A common man may wonder if a score is being settled.
FACT-he did not speak to the public or PTO about this plan and WHY it could and would work. What can I infer from that?
We can always reverse the decision. (this is a favorite of mine). This would imply that we could remove the stoplights at the corner of Nicolas and Monona because it is an intersection that is close to the Police Dept, the police chief is excellent AND we can always put it back.
It makes no recognition that the damage will be done BEFORE it is put back. Please present to us a peer reviewed article or study (government funded_please) (may I suggest a regression alyasis) on how this will be beneficial to district, student, families and community (while you are at it find one on dual principals) (No offense, No Negative emotions....but I suspect you will have better luck joining sisyphus.
Often heard-"We have no other options to cut the budget." there are other options you and the board refuses to endorse them. Further, we DO NOT have to sign a 2 year contract...trust but verify my friend.
In short, you believe the ratio is too high OR the costs are too Maywood (what is too high or too much). As I recall jr. high (Mr. Trumpold) you determine your criteria before the research) Hyp. and then research...results. The inference of this is that we better relize how good we have it...(what else can I infer). THis makes people feel shame, divides people and scares them. If this IS NOT your motivation, please realize it is what you are telling them and what they are feeling.
FACT-This district has kept Maywood OPEN for good and sufficient reasons. My assumption here is that the board and district can not close maywood for admin and political realities. Why must we scare them with threats..."it is our way of keeping it open."
I contend you must keep it open-at this point unless you sink a fairly large sum of money to reconfiguration Wine.
So, you have picked a metric of your making and just told us it is too high. I am making no arguments about your motivation that is what you did.
What is too high?
Take it too the logical extreme: a ratio of AC units per building/per el. student OR gyms OR muscic rooms? (The point is Monona does not have very good facilities and when you start removing human capital it scares-there is nothing left.)
Do we remove AC units from Taylor Prairie unil it is equalized? Now who is the fat cat and who is being energy wasteful?
In short, the brd OR/and super endorses and continues to propagate an arugment that divides, scares and shames. Yes, I do not know the intent, but you can not disagree it is the result.
So, may I knindly suggest the ratio argument is just as silly as the others and we need to work better at telling people the real reasons and then listening-assuring...etc
The older Monona resident who states that Maywood is kept open only to "appease" Monona parents is a refrain heard often from what I believe to be a vocal and divisive minority.
Appeasement assumes that there is an aggressive party in need of buying off at the expense of others.
Peter, if there ever was a statement that "ascribed negative motivations to others", that post certainly qualifies.
Yet there it remains while posts from those who respectfully disagree with you get deleted wholesale.
I am curious to know why everyone thinks that Maywood is ONLY being kept open to satisfy "a vocal but small" minority?
I find this curious. I was a no voter on the referendum issue. Several of us recognized early on that the intention of the Board is to eventually consolidate all remaining Monona students under one roof, whether it is good for them or not. Is the Board fighting it simply because we predicted that this was their intent? Many have a holier-than-thou attitude about this all. There are loud exclamations that this principal cut is NECESSARY TO KEEP MAYWOOD OPEN!!!
Funny thing - many of us believe that closing Maywood now is the right thing to do.
Why must this Board play us as the whiny Monona minority, when that simply is not the case? We only aspire to GET WHAT WE ARE PAYING tax dollars for. Should we start another thread for the discussion about how Monona's tax dollars pay for a majority of the district's assets, and the fact that those assets are no longer located in our community? I'd be curious to hear Peter's scientific spin on this one!
What the Board doesn't realize is that they are decimating the very community that has for decades been their bread and butter. As the housing crisis freezes growth in Cottage Grove, and folks in that community can't pay their adjusting mortgages, and as both communities feel the real crunch of assessments going in the WRONG direction, it will be interesting to see what else we have to cut when everything in Monona is already gone.
Any ideas, Peter?
I not sure that Monona's tax dollars pay for the magority of the School District. This is often the perception, but it is probably based upon tax "guesstimates" such as comparing the communites' populations, or home values. It would be interesting to see comparative numbers, but I have not found it on the district's website.
Probably the biggest portion of funds come from the state. This is usually claimed to be 2/3s but it probably isn't this high. What ever the ammount, it is based upon the number of students. Like it or hate it, this determines how the board should prepair its budget.
It doesn't mean the board should ignore Monona, but if there are approximately twice as many kids from Cottage Grove, there should be approximately twice as many classrooms/schools with the same class size in both locations.
I think the recession, and housing slow down is going to hurt both communitees about equal. Saving costs (such as by combining schools), can free up funds to improve the district, and make it more attractive to new families.
I belive the entire problem here is one of process. The way the board gathers public input on difficult issues needs to change, and the involved, attentive residents of this district should help and support the board in doing that. The processes used in decision making need to be more transparent and understandable. Criteria must be determined and then adhered to. More budget problems are coming. The good news is that Monona Grove has been very lucky to be one of the last districts in Wisconsin to face these problems. This means there are many districts who have already been through this. There must be at least a few districts who have engaged the public effectively, such that when the final decisions were made, most people felt like they understood the decisions and also believed their concerns were heard even if they did not agree with the final outcome. Until these process issues are addressed, this toxic dynamic will continue.
Anonymous April 23, 2008 2:24 PM :
No one is talking about significant reductions to staff ratios - my point above was simply to refute what I think is the contention that the schools in Monona are "Half-staffed".
If the worry is security, then the solutions should be targeted directly at security related solutions. Teacher/staff training for crisis intervention or even a security guard would be a more effective and less costly approach than relying on a skilled administrator for security. I haven't seen any indications we need additional security at our elementary schools.
DPI doesn't require full time administrator presence, and indeed administrator's are frequently absent from the buildings due to district responsibilities and etc. Many other schools in WI do have part time or shared principals.
And Yes, when my children were in Maywood I spent some time volunteering in the building! It is a great place for kids.
Anonymous April 23, 2008 5:57 PM. Administrators are not streetlights.
Anonymous April 23, 2008 7:50 PM:
The post you are complaining about did not identify any particular individuals, that makes it quantitatively different from your deleted post.
Anonymous April 23, 2008 8:28 PM:
I utterly reject the contention that decisions about allocations of resources should be made on any other basis than the needs of kids. Period. The tax base consideration provides no basis for sound educational decision making.
But for the record, in 2007-8 about 27% of the district funding came from Monona property taxes and 24% from CG property taxes. Does this mean that CG students should have less resources? Absolutly not- in several years the CG tax base will exceed the Monona tax base, does that mean Monona students should then get fewer resources? You would certainly reject that argument! The last thing Monona residents should want to do is set the precedent of resources flowing to one community or another based on the tax base. People seem to forget that the district's largest asset, the high school, is most certainly located in Monona. If the CG tax base exceeds Monona tax base before the half way point of pay-off in the bond issue (2014?) then the CG taxes will likely pay for a higher percentage of the building - as will certainly be the case for new middle school. Not that this matters in making educational decisions!
I think the evidence would show that Monona elementary schools are more than adequatly staffed and funded - the low staff ratios are evidence of the commitment of the district to meet the needs of the students - there is no evidence at all that the schools are being "decimated".
Lily - Thank you for your thoughtful post. Yes there is clearly a communication problem between the board and community. I will start a thread on that topic!
Mr. Sobol,
I appreciate the information comparing the funding from tax payers. I think it demonstraits how close a partnership the two communitees have in the district. I agree with your positions that funds should be divided based upon treatment of students, and not base upon source.
"there is no evidence at all that the schools are being "decimated".
"
Aggreed, I would use the Senge Frog metopher.
In short, it is a very slow deconstruction of what has been built.
I trust you have joined sisyphus instead of looking for a peer reviewed study that says this is a good idea.
yes, we should do for kids and that would not include holding back resources with the thought...in the front or the back of your head....we will have to close it anyway
How many years has the arugment been used?
Also for the record, from 1962 to 2004, Monona has paid 70% of the cumulative school property taxes.
Monona: $214,919,729
Town & V of CG: $93,286,197
My previous post is confusing-sorry.
I mean to say if we were to make decisions based on the the kids.
Then we would not try to strangle the building environment.
Thus, we should not be making the irrational argument....well we can not invest too much....cause it is closing soon and before you know it 7 years passes and before you know it then... it stinks.
Again, you can not close it and never have been able to close it. So, let us get on with it.
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